tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2137745883005399087.post5179929088274252452..comments2023-11-05T01:50:18.443-07:00Comments on Into the Mound: Pagan Theology – Crisis of Faith, & Star’s ListIanChttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05091029307945473759noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2137745883005399087.post-85152926069162609222019-10-05T09:06:58.589-07:002019-10-05T09:06:58.589-07:00Hi . It’s really interesting article,and close to ...Hi . It’s really interesting article,and close to heart, as I do go through “crisis” as Star does or did (I m not up to date with her current situation).<br />I wrote really long comment here, yesterday night; and it did not post itself.(Well I couldn’t do copy save and paste just in case)<br />I am not feeling too good, so I can’t re do it. Regretfully.<br />I wanted to ask about point you have made:<br />-<br />I don’t believe I need a coherent opinion about their ‘real’ nature to work with them, or to have a viable religion. I do have two or three favorite models of what they might “really be”.<br /><br />What are they to you? How do you approach certain deity having no coherent nature of the deity “within you”? That would mean you approach something else each time if it does changes in its nature each time it is approached by you, wether it is ritual or prayer etc. Are you referring to ‘ moods’ ?of deity, for the lack of better word to describe what I mean, they are present, as in humans, that’s what I experience while working with them, and it’s not reflection of my own mood and emotions at particular moment, although that does play part in perceiving deity, spirit. <br />However if the nature is incoherent then it’s rather hard to assign the cluster of the energy to a name under certain entity goes by?<br />BlessingSageAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2137745883005399087.post-19136714214154562852012-04-30T07:06:47.223-07:002012-04-30T07:06:47.223-07:00Your welcome, Glad to read here,:-)
Yes, in regard...Your welcome, Glad to read here,:-)<br />Yes, in regards to Eleusis, for many folks they would have experienced the mysteries once. What I was getting at was the idea that the complex at Eleusis was also in use in between the main rites. They mysteries were the high point of the calendar but worship was still done daily.<br />With Samothrace, initiation into the 'Mystery', wasn't calendrical as it was at Eleusis, nor was it necessarily an inner aspect of hellenistic religion.<br />I wasn't thinking in terms of 'stand alone' being synonomous with exclusivity, i.e. that one would forego hearth or the state practices of religion. <br />with the Orphics, what you say may have been the case, yet the positions and functions of the gods of the common heritage were seen as different than in the general practices and worship. So we're talking about a different cosmogony than that shared by the contemporary beliefs as it were.<br />It really gets into the idea of inner and outer forms as it were, and exactly what we mean by the term "religion". As you mentioned previously, many times the mystery cult is at the center of an outer one, and so can form the personal religion. Even in the priestly castes. The priests were initiated into the mystery of their respective cult, and moved through the various levels or stages. From my own studies, it's from that experience of the 'Mystery' around which the outer forms grow.<br />It gets into an often asked question "Who was the first initiate? and who initiated them?"Chevaliermalfaithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16752064253168075712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2137745883005399087.post-74409577005313119372012-04-27T06:08:59.148-07:002012-04-27T06:08:59.148-07:00I would see Eleusis as a special mystery inside of...I would see Eleusis as a special mystery inside of a wider religion of Hellenic polytheism. Almost every freeman who attended sacrifices at his village's temples would have been to Eleusis at least once. For a lot of people it was only once, yes? Events such as Eleusis would have provided peak experiences that would have informed the more commonplace village festivals for the rest of one's life.<br />Now, Orphic religion seems more deliberately separated from common cult, but even there I don't think Orphic initiates would have absented themselves from village festival religion, and of course Dionysos, Hades, etc were part of the common religious heritage.<br />I've never seen an indication that even orphic initiates would have seen themselves as separate from the general religion of the countryside, though they might have seen themselves as privileged members of it.<br />I see 'mystery initiation' inside Hinduism as things such as specialized initiations into matras and sadhanas. One becomes an initiate of a specific pattern of working and that flavors (or defines, depending)one's hearth religion, though it may have little impact one one's participation in temple religion or cultural holy days.<br />When I did initiatory Craft I very much enjoyed getting out to the general national festivals and local Pagan worship events. I always felt as though my own private work made me better able to get the juice from those events, and the participation in big community gave width to my personal work. I guess that's one reason why I'm still willing to refer to my religion broadly as "Paganism", though my hearth work is much more specialized than that.<br />Thanks for reading!IanChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05091029307945473759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2137745883005399087.post-59423268243725344872012-04-26T08:31:44.383-07:002012-04-26T08:31:44.383-07:00n excellent expounding of view and one a share alo...n excellent expounding of view and one a share alot in common with. There is one point I'd be inclined to disagree with.<br />"Incidentally, the essay discusses mystery religons, such as initiatory witchcraft, and whether they can function as complete religions in themselves. I would say that in the ancient world (or modern Hinduism) they do not. A mystery religion is a specific set of rites, images and ideas meant to produce specific effects in the initiates. It always exists inside of (or occasionally in contrast to) a larger community religion."<br /><br />I don't think I'd make statements in absolute terms, such as 'they do not' or 'always exists". Though you do lessen the absolutness in the latter with 'occasionally in contrast to'. Which latter statement seems to be at odds with do not stand alone.<br />Taking two of the older classical mystery cults, Eleusis and Samothrace, given the complexes associated with those mysteries, I'd be hard pressed to consider them not functioning as stand alone religions. There is also the question of their nature, not much of which has come down to us. In another classical mystery cult, the Orphic, there's a little more evidence that there was a complete theogony and cosmogony to consider the Orphics as a 'stand alone' religion.<br />I'm not sure I'd include ' Modern hinduism', in the context of Mystery religions in general. As you write, there's too broad of scope to really say anything in general about the various cults of India. The vedic traditions are more organised around levels and "relative truths", as it were, depending on level, much like the proverbial onion.<br />From my personal perspective regarding the initiatory order of craft which I was brought into,there "is a specific set of rites, images and ideas meant to produce specific effects in the initiates." But those rites, images and ideas also continue to inform an initiates practices, and also provide a distinctive world view, and I would say do constitute a stand alone religion.Chevaliermalfaithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16752064253168075712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2137745883005399087.post-4053186278477642262012-04-26T01:07:11.704-07:002012-04-26T01:07:11.704-07:00Ian, I really appreciate your emphasis on orthopra...Ian, I really appreciate your emphasis on orthopraxy, and find your picture of simultaneous layers of religion (hearth/village/royal) intriguing. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here.Erinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01924303194614121873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2137745883005399087.post-61125909914138812392012-04-20T11:12:26.190-07:002012-04-20T11:12:26.190-07:00Thank you Ian, especially for your reply to number...Thank you Ian, especially for your reply to number 7. That one was not sitting well with me, but I wasn't able to articulate why. You've been able to do so, splendidly.Vanyehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12654972461120002358noreply@blogger.com